In all honesty, I am interested in this entire chapter (XL or 40). These two characters embody much of the problem about character/nature/nuture we were talking about in class and that Dickens must -- on some level -- resolve if he is to "end" (provide closure for) this novel. What I have excerpted here are the passages I think need particular attention, but you can also comment on the chapter and its "strange interview" as a whole.
The girl's life had been squandered in the streets, and among the most noisome of the stews and dens of London, but there was something of the woman's original nature left in her still; and when she heard a light step approaching the door opposite to that by which she had entered, and thought of the wide contrast which the small room would in another moment contain, she felt burdened with the sense of her own deep shame: and shrunk as though she could scarcely bear the presence of her with whom she had sought this interview.
***
The kind tone of this answer, the sweet voice, the gentle manner, the absence of any accent of haughtiness or displeasure, took the girl completely by surprise, and she burst into tears.
'Oh, lady, lady!' she said, clasping her hands passionately before her face, 'if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me, -- there would -- there would!'
***
'I, lady! replied [Nancy]. 'I am the infamous creature you have heard of, that lives among the thieves, and that never from the first moment I can recollect my eyes and senses opening on London streets have known any better life, or kinder words than they have given me, so help me God! Do not mind shrinking openly from me, lady. I am younger than you would think, to look at me, but I am well used to it. The poorest women fall back, as I make my way along the crowded pavement.'
'What dreadful things are these!' said Rose, involuntarily falling from her strange companion.
'Thank Heaven upon your knees, dear lady,' cried the girl, 'that you had friends to care for and keep you in your childhood, and that you were never in the midst of cold and hunger, and riot and drunkenness, and -- and something worse than all -- as I have been from my cradle; I may use the word, for the alley and the gutter were mine, as they will be my death-bed.'
***
'Is it possible,' cried Rose, 'that for such a man as this, you can resign every future hope, and the certainty of immediate rescue? It is madness.'
***
'When ladies as young, and good, and beautiful as you are,' replied the girl steadily, 'give away your hearts, love will carry you all lengths -- even such as you, who have home, friends, other admirers, everything to fill them. When such as I, who have no certain roof but the coffin-lid, and no friend in sickness or death but the hospital nurse, set our rotten hearts on any man, and let him fill the place that has been a blank through all our wretched lives, who can hope to cure us? Pity us, lady -- pity us for having only one feeling of the woman left, and for having that turned, by a heavy judgment, from a comfort and a pride, into a new means of violence and suffering.'
The passage that had a greater effect on me is the one with the interview between Rose and Nancy. Here Dickens describes how the environment we live on plays a major role in our lives as well. As Nancy tells Rose, if there was more kind people like her she wouldn't be who she is . She would have had a better past, present and future. According to Dickens we are all born the same, for we are all born good but how we are guided from our birth on reflects on our adulthood. How we are influence by society may turn us into good individuals or bad ones if we are constantly introduce to the negativities of the world and mistreated as was Nancy.
ReplyDeleteThe passages above are intended to make the distinction between pure, angelic women and those who have fallen. These passages particularly bring us back to the letter that Dickens had wrote--or will write depending on when he published the novel--to the fallen women of England. In the story, Nancy and Rose come face to face, which makes it more powerful. Dickens could just narrate and summarize what happens, but he chooses to make Nancy speak on behalf of all the fallen women. Nancy explains that she is an "infamous creature" who has been in the "alley[s] and gutter[s]" since her childhood. In contrast, the "young, and good, and beautiful" Rose should thank "Heaven" for not being a fallen woman. Nancy also reveals that "'if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me, -- there would -- there would!'" Why does she say that? Dickens leaves it to the reader to figure out. It is almost as if he is saying that it is time for change and it begins with the people realizing what is the problem in their society.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that 1) there is a "stain" on Rose's character (about which we will learn, but don't at this point know what that means exactly) and 2) Oliver's mother was obviously in trouble as she ended up near-death at a Workhouse.
ReplyDeleteThis passage reminds me of the singing woman with the baby -- from Sketches. I noticed how much Dickens took from his routine strolls of London --incorporate them into his novel-- while creating awareness of women and poverty.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Phylicia's comment. I am often reminded of the singing woman with the baby from Sketches when I look at the female characters in Oliver Twist. In Sketches, this woman had no name and she represented sort of an every day woman. She was designed for the readers to see a woman in her every day struggles, and in Oliver Twist the female characters display these struggles in a more personal and detailed way.
DeleteNancy's self-awareness as displayed through her own words is interesting. Nancy is aware of her actions, past and present, and it seems as though she truly wants to change and become 'good'.
ReplyDeleteRose, on the other hand is also aware of her own 'stain' yet she continues to reject Harry.
Ironically, Nancy as depicted in this chapter seems not to have any sense of denial which would impede her progress of becoming good. She attributes her inability to leave to external forces (Sikes and Fagin).
The distinction between Rose and Nancy seems to be psychological. I think Dickens purposely highlights the differences in change. Although Nancy's and Rose's situation are different, similar aspects exist in relation to both women's quest/desire/want for/to change.
Rose is already 'good' so possibly she has a more difficult time accepting her stain. Harry does not seem bothered by Rose's 'stain' as he makes a plea for her love and vows he will not stop trying.
I really enjoyed reading this chapter because I love the interaction with the two female characters. I'm not sure if I'm a little biased because I am a woman myself, so naturally it would interest me, but I enjoy the way Dickens allows Nancy and Rose to interact with each other. Specifically, when Nancy tells Rose, "if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me", it's a perfect example of how people in society play probably the biggest role in where other people fall into society. In other words, Nancy felt that if there were kinder and morally good people in the world, it would make it easier for people like Nancy to reach out and receive help from those more fortunate than her. Ultimately Dickens is addressing how people affect the lives of everyone around them, whether it be directly or indirectly. It's a very strong statement and position to make, and part of why it is so powerful is because it is a timeless subject. This novel is a classic partially because it is timeless and people can still relate to the issue Dickens addresses. He's raising awareness on society, poverty and class systems. These issues have remained important to people on a very high scale and will never go away because unfortunately, it is the way people function. But what is most important, is that Dickens is raising awareness through Rose and Nancy about women and their role. Although it may have seemed a bit irresponsible for Nancy to make such a statement, the point is that Nancy MIGHT have ended up living a different life if there were more people like Rose in the world.
ReplyDeleteGood comment, Nina. I think it is powerful to take two female characters, particularly one from the social margins, and give them center stage (the whole stage actually). It's not like they are here talking about love, marriage, dinner party etiquette (sorry, Jane Austen!). This is a psychologically raw exchange (returning to a violent lover) between two women who society would never allow to be brought together. I want to underscore your point about connection, how Dickens is working to make us see here that we are connected, even as we create social rules and institutions (class, the Workhouse/prison) that separate us. The question is: is recognizing our connection to one another enough to change society's biggest problems?
DeleteIn these passages, Dickens makes a statement about class, nature and nurture. The interaction between Rose and Nancy proves that all women are the same regardless of their class. For example, Nancy points this out to Rose saying, “Thank Heaven upon your knees, dear lady,' cried the girl, 'that you had friends to care for and keep you in your childhood, and that you were never in the midst of cold and hunger, and riot and drunkenness…,” Rose could have been in a much similar situation as Nancy. However, because of nurture she is not. This also appears to be a foreshadow to Rose’s stain. Nancy does not point out that Rose as family, she points out that Rose has friends to care for her.
ReplyDelete'if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me, -- there would -- there would! this quote struck me the most. I think what she means by this is that if there were more innocent and pure women like Rose it would be less women that are "fallen". The girl that spoke to Rose is poverty stricken while Rose isnt. Another example of a woman like Rose is that she is kind and caring. For example, Rose insists on helping the fallen woman.Sit down," said Rose, earnestly. "If you are in poverty or affliction I shall be truly glad to relieve you if I can,- I shall indeed. Sit down."
ReplyDeleteI agree, Not only does Rose fall under the catagory of the few good people but to Nancy, she is the ideal woman and yet she can find herself worthy enough to stand in Rose's presence. He says "she felt burdened with the sense of her own deep shame: and shrunk as though she could scarcely bear the presence of her with whom she had sought this interview". In this scene Nancy spends so much time beating herself down by demeaning her self esteam. She feels shameful because of the path she has chose in life,and yet here Rose aloso a "stained" individual whos short comings are covered by her statusand degree.I believe the only difference that exist btween Rose and Nancy are their up bringings. Inately both women resemble eachother because they fall under that "good" catagory. Both characters equally represent a mother figure for Oliver and risk their lives fo his well being. This dialogue between Nancy and Rose is Dickens critique of the social conditions in London and his dipiction of women, although in an optimistic tone according to Rose exposes the harsh realities of the envionment through Nancys's experience.
DeleteLove. That's the word that stuck out to me. Dickens plays up the importance of being loved. Love in a Dickens way conquers it all. Mothers love is what saved (although Ms. Maylie is not her biological mother) is what saved Rose. And devastatingly enough it was the lack thereof that condemned Nancy. Had more love been shown to Nancy she would not have.sought after things and a man like Sike to try and fill the void that not being loved caused
ReplyDeleteChristina brings up a BIG 19th century literary idea: the power of love. If any of you have read UNCLE TOM'S CABIN, you know that Tom dies saying that "it ain't nothing but love." Can love stop and/or heal the wounds caused by slavery? We are asking a very similar question about Dickens: can human connection -- love -- solve the problems created by urbanization and industrialization?
DeletePersonally, I believe that love is extremely powerful. Although love may not fully stop and/or heal the wounds caused by slavery, poverty, and other sufferings that society tends to throw at us, love can surely work to guide and lead us to safety/happiness. As Christina pointed out, if more love, such as that from a nurturing mother, had been shown to Nancy, she could have chosen a different path for herself. The feeling/sensation of love could have acted as a guide towards a better future by giving Nancy a clearer sense of morality.
DeleteThe core, and the main message, of the novel is displayed in this chapter. Nancy represents the cruel outcome of poverty and what can become of a good person in poverty. While Rose represents then noble purity and gentleness of coming from wealth. Nancy has done things she has not been proud of in order to survive and look out for herself. Rose on the other hand has been taken care of her whole life without ever having the experience to fend for herself. These two women come from two totally different environments and upbringings. They could not be more different socially but Dickens depicts the one similarity that connects these women, the ability to love. They both have a maternalist love towards Oliver.
DeleteNancy brings up this notion of love which binds them as equal women. Nancy says when women, whether they are like herself "who have no certain roof but the coffin-lid, and no friend in sickness or death but the hospital nurse", or "ladies as young, and good, and beautiful" as Rose, "love will carry you all lengths". There is nothing that will stand in a woman's way of her love. There are no boundaries, rules, or laws to prohibit her from her loved one. Nancy tells Rose "Pity us, lady—pity us for having only one feeling of the woman left and for having that turned." I am not totally sure if the "one feeling of the woman" means that a woman is limited to only one kind of love; the love as a mother or as a lover. Nancy attempts to portray both loves by saving Oliver and by returning to Sikes. But that love was "turned, by a heavy judgment, from a comfort and a pride into a new means of violence and suffering". By saving Oliver she betrays Sikes, and in Sikes's eyes Nancy chooses Oliver over him. Nancy's attempt to obtain both loves causes her death.
When I read the lines "'Oh, lady, lady!' she said, clasping her hands passionately before her face, 'if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me, -- there would -- there would!'" a few things came to my mind. The first was the more obvious deduction that more pure, good women like Rose would in turn result in a decrease of the Nancy's of the world. The second thought was poverty. I feel that Dickens is trying to say that if change was made, and more people were like Rose, that the world would not just be a better place morally, but perhaps economically as well. Nancy is the epitome of being "dealt a bad hand" in life, as she has nothing, and is pretty much part of the decay of society. She represents everything that is wrong in society, although she acknowledges that society would be better off without people like her, much like poverty. Rose on the other hand, she represents the idea that if something untainted like herself was in abundance, perhaps the "diseases" plaguing the world would decrease. Ultimately, I don't think populating the world with Roses would make the world perfect, but it would create a realm of opportunity, and allow society to rebuild itself as it clearly is in a state of turmoil as seen throughout the novel/characters.
ReplyDeleteI think its interesting how Dickens uses these two characters, Rose and Nancy, to show the differences in character and fate when a person has a certain Nature. Nurture only goes but so far -Nancy had a bad upbringing but it was her nature that paved the way for her doomed fate. When you have a "good' nature however, fate takes a turn and gives you a second chance (Oliver and Rose).
ReplyDeleteOh, lady, lady!' she said, clasping her hands passionately before her face, 'if there was more like you, there would be fewer like me, -- there would -- there would!' This is the most significant line in the interview as it expresses the girl wanting empathy. She has probably been judged throughout her life due to her tainted past and it has "stained" her as a woman and to come into contact with someone who attempts to understand her rather than treat her with disdain is refreshing for her. The nature of people to question what they dont understand and treat it with scrutiny is why people remain on the same bad path as opposed as being helped off it.
DeleteSo interesting to use stain in reference to Nancy, since it is Rose who has this mysterious "stain." Now that you know of Rose's origins, how does this conversation change for you?
DeleteI got a kick out of Nancy's claim, where she refers to herself as a "creature... that lives among the thieves." Its tone echoes sarcasm, very similar to many of Dickens's earlier passages, yet the statement itself is one hundred percent true. Nancy grew up in a world of turmoil, and is the way she is because of that reason only; I suppose this is Dickensian, since Dickens enforces the idea that corruption is acquired through one's environment, and not at birth. And if that isn't illustrated enough, Nancy goes further with the notion, insinuating that Rose is lucky to have lived a life completely contradictory to her own; this implies that Rose could just have easily ended up like Nancy, had she been unfortunate enough to lead such a lifestyle, unwillingly of course.
ReplyDeleteAnd as the novel wears on, this potential (for Rose to end up like Nancy) becomes even more pronounced.
DeleteHaving Rose and Nancy is interesting because it shows us what Dickens and society in England saw the two paths of a woman could be. This also shows the conflict between the innate nature concept and the environment concept. My problem with Dickens nature argument is what exactly does he mean by it. "The girl's life had been squandered in the streets...but something in the woman's original nature." My question is Dickens does mean that some people are born good while others are not? And are only the ones that are born "good" the only ones worth saving?
ReplyDeleteFantastic question, Sean. The only answer to your question is for us to read more Dickens to find out!
DeleteI see Dickens introduction of Nancy to Rose and Rose to Nancy as sort of being like the "Looking glass self" where each one has the chance to see themself through the current state of the other one but from a "Wow that could have been me!" Moment. We've all heard the title "A Tale of Two Cities" this is Dickens showing the tale of two cities but emphasizing a distinction that is littered all throughout the story, but never really adressed. Here he adresses this distinction that exists in the entire city, through the plight of two Women. He makes sure to let his readers see that what seperates these two Women is a mere happening of the circumstances surrounding each ones come uppance in life. The Elites.... Seeing themselves, through the character of Rose and Nancy. For many of Londons middle class escaped becoming a street dweller through similar circumstances. As well as many found their way from such a lifestyle the Dickens and his family found a way out of there time in the workhouse. Unlike a lot of people in society He just never forgot.
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