The garden was too overgrown and rank for walking in with ease, and after we had made the round of it twice or thrice, we came out again into the brewery yard. I showed her to a nicety where I had seen her walking on the casks, that first old day, and she said, with a cold and careless look in that direction, "Did I?" I reminded her where she had come out of the house and given me my meat and drink, and she said, "I don't remember." "Not remember that you made me cry?" said I. "No," said she, and shook her head and looked about her. I verily believe that her not remembering and not minding in the least, made me cry again, inwardly -- and that is the sharpest crying of all.
"You must know," said Estella, condescending to me as a brilliant and beautiful woman might, "that I have no heart -- if that has anything to do with my memory."
I got through some jargon to the effect that I took the liberty of doubting that. That I knew better. That there could be no such beauty without it.
"Oh! I heave a heart to be stabbed in or shot in, I have no doubt," said Estella, "and, of course, if it ceased to beat I should cease to be. But you know what I mean. I have no softness there, no -- sympathy -- sentiment -- nonsense."
What's most interesting about this passage is how Dickens chooses to cast Estella in a different light, than most of his ideal female characters who represent the heart of the home. She begins her dialogue with "You must know", stressing a sense of urgency or importance of her disposition. In many ways she finds it imperative that Pip acknowledges her lack of sensitivity. She says, " I have no softness there, no --sympathy--sentiment--nonsense". To her, these characteristic that are explicitly associated with women, have no value. Estella realizes that she's been this way for as long as she can remember. What also important how she differentiates the human physical heart from the emotional or moral heart distinguished from intellectual nature. She realizes that she is not immortal and capable of dying if that physical heart is traumatized, but refuses to identify herself with the abstract heart. This dialogue also raises some discussions we've had in the past about nature vs nurture. Considering that Estella is pretty well of and privileged, it is safe to say that its her upbringing rather than her environment that has this negative effect on her.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this passage, I initially thought of Grangrind's philosophy on carrying emotions. When Estella says, "I have no softness there, no--sympathy--sentiment--nonsense," her cryptic list of emotions, which she lacks, mirrors Grangrind's idea of human beings. Moreover, when Estella says that she has no heart, she represents the inhumane aspect of her up bringing--that without a heart, she isn't human.
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out that I also thought of Mr. Gradgrind after reading this passage, as well as Bitzer's white blood.
DeleteI also thought of Gradgrind's philosophy in bringing up Louisa. But unlike Gradgrind, I see Ms. Havisham's design to be more sinister than Gradgrind's. I got from reading this passage that Estella was seeking some type of understanding from Pip. I say this because when I first read this passage I thought she was intentionally not remembering the pain she caused but when she says "that I have no heart -- if that has anything to do with my memory." I started to question if she was being inconsiderate or spiteful on purpose or if she cannot help it.
DeleteI also thought of her describing her heart to be similar to how Bitzer makes his definitions. I thought of Estella being the combination of Louisa, Mr. Harthouse, and Bitzer. Additionally, in this chapter in general I begin to think that Estella and Ms. Havisham are sinister at times but that they are also incredibly sad characters.
DeleteTotally! Estella is a composite of Louisa, Mr. Harthouse and Bitzer -- which begs the question, is GREAT EXPECTATIONS a more sophisticated (developed? evolved?) novel than the previous two? And yes, sinister and sad is a great way to describe them.
DeleteThe passage perfectly illustrates how Estella is a mere product of Mrs. Havisham's upbringing. Mrs. Havisham sends Estella abroad in order to be raised in a particular way--a way that suits Mrs. Havisham's likening. This is why Pip is called back to see Estella after her arrival. Pip is surprised to notice that the woman he idealizes has become "cold" and "careless". In fact, she does not remember what had happened between them when they were young. The adoptive mother is successful in turning her adopted daughter into a puppet that has no human "heart". This can be detected in Estella's tone when she speaks to Pip. Estella knows what a heart is and knows what the heart is capable of, but her answer to Pip suggests that she is prohibited from using it.
ReplyDeleteI think that Estella not only becomes a puppet but Ms. Havisham's instrument for revenge. Ms. Havisham had her heart broken by a man that she, Ms. Havisham, loved immensity and she wants Estella to be loved by Pip, so that Estella can break his heart. By Estella not having a heart it ensures that Pip will get his heart broken and that Ms. Havisham will her revenge.
DeleteReading this passage causes me anger towards Estella and pity towards Pip. As Dickens reflects in his writing, despite of all the suffering we may encounter, we have the option of becoming good individuals. I do not understand why Estella when probably meeting the only person that has been sincere and kind to her, she decides to treat harshly. It makes me wonder why Pip continues to tolerate this from her
ReplyDeleteI guess you have to ask yourself if Estella is responsible for her decisions here. On the one hand, she is a product of Miss Havisham's system as Louisa is a product of Gradgrind's. But at the last minute, Louisa was able to pull herself out of a full nose-dive. Is that because of her love for her brother? Did that attachment protect what little heart she had? If so, has Estella had any such breaks?
DeleteAt first I didn't like Estelle too much myself but I kind of like her now. I believe she is the realist character in the novel. She doesn't flip flop between morals and ideas. She calls it as it is whether she has to hurt some feelings in the process. She is not going to to tell Pip what he wants to hear but the reality. Pip can take it or leave it, and he ends up taking it while crying on the inside.
DeleteI agree, and i think it's interesting that Dickens choses a female to be this cold yet real character. Moreover, i think Dickens is playing off of what we see in Hard Times, major importance on family and upbringing. Estella is the product of the people who raised her.
DeleteDickens choice to use a woman struck me as odd to because initially Dickens always alluded to the ideal woman as being caring, warm, and a homemaker. Throughout this novel however, he contradicts this idea which is strange is it because he felt that his mother like this woman was not caring enough?
DeleteBesides the cruel disposition of Estella's words in this excerpt, Dickens through his characters voices gives a message. The message that Dickens wants to make clear is that Pip has a heart and that Estella does not, but the reason that he gives is when Estella says, "Condescending to me as a brilliant and beautiful woman might, "that I have no heart". This means that she is beautiful and she knows it and she gets the attention that she is looking for because she has many suitors. Therefore and as a result of Estella's beauty and brains that offers many options such as her pick amongst suitors she is indifferent to any of their feelings. Overall Dickens is saying with the message that he gives in this passage that some upper class women in society are smart but when they are beautiful as well they only use these characteristics to do others that care for them wrongly.
ReplyDeleteOnce again Charles Dickens is giving another perspective of his view on Women, which is also the view he's sharing with his readers. Dickens has his way of introducing his readers to the unpopular thoughts of his day. In every novel or short story Dickens introduced us to a different facet of Woman that depicted the problem with Women of his day while also demonstrating projections of their possibilities. This is the introduction of an educated woman who has also been around the world to other places. Her knowledge is much broader in her understanding the position of women in the present society. So dickens now gives us the Woman that refuses to become a statistic to her natural inclination to nurture or be emotionally swayed by a man or the present societies dictation of how she should think. She chooses not to care about anything so that way she will not be subject to or affected by those social norms that Dickens shows to be the state of women in his other novels and stories. This is Dickens version of a woman fighting back against the status quo, a woman offering up a solution to accepting the subservient position that a male dominated society places them in. This is he other face of Woman and what Dickens believes they can do to prevent themselves from becoming just another face in the crowd. By not caring she has turned off the one thing that would give society an advantage over her...... her ability to care! "By it you enslave me, and by it I set myself free from your chains."
ReplyDeleteThis is pretty brilliant (this is for most of you guys who've brought up social status). Am I not giving Estella the benefit of the doubt? Is she merely standing up for her social class?
DeleteI guess my understanding of Pip's pain blinded me from Estrella's potential goodness.
"So dickens now gives us the Woman that refuses to become a statistic to her natural inclination to nurture or be emotionally swayed by a man or the present societies dictation of how she should think." Gregory I would probably agree with you if Estella really choose to act in this way. I don't think that Estella has much of a choose in the situation. Ms. Havisham controls much of Estella's life. Also I doubt that Dickens wants to offer this as a solution to the woman question. Her not having a "heart" goes against what Dickens believe that a person needs.
DeleteDamn, what an arsehole.
ReplyDeleteThis may be the first time I've read Dickens's work and have been able to tie it to a personal level. I've related some of his writing to my observations of the real world, but this time, I feel the sincerity of his words, and the stinging of his pain. Dickens captures the pompous ways of the insensitive woman too accurately. Estella initially expresses her pedantic behavior, merely questioning her memory, but then she quickly obliterates that obscurity, making it very clear that she is incapable of "sympathy," and my favorite word, "nonsense." Because, you know, feeling anything is utter nonsense. What a jerk! And we've all been there, crying "inwardly," right? It is definitely the worst type of crying, because the pain rivals outward crying, except that it's withheld, making it much more severe.
Although I do not like Estella, I find her comparison with the heart and memory interesting. I tend to remember the things I care about with great detail, literally down to the date and time of things that have occurred years ago. I understand that others' memories may not be as sharp, but I still think they go hand in hand. Things or people of significance, such as the first viewing of a potential love interest, are unforgettable.
Estella's not where you're at, Pip. Move on, bro.
I cannot count the ways in which I love this comment. But I'll stick to two: 1) the inward crying is such an important insight, as Troy suggests. And this is relevant to Dickens's development as a novelist. If, in some way, he begins his career as a "town crier," trying to get the public's attention, with GREAT EXPECTATIONS he is turning his gaze inward on the trauma society can inflict on the individual and who he/she becomes. 2) I think Dickens very much is thinking that memory is primarily an emotional phenomenon: remember, GREAT EXPECTATIONS is told by an older Pip, looking back on his life. There's a whole bunch he doesn't tell us, but we can assume the parts that stick with him are those that affected him deeply. Brings to mind Dickens's autobiographical fragment. The man who could write thousands of pages only coughed up a fragment of his own story: perhaps this was the part that affected him the most, THE memory.
DeleteWhile reading this passage I thought of Pip’s conversation with the pale young gentleman, Herbert Pocket. Herbert informs Pip that Estella is ‘“hard and haughty and capricious to the last degree, and has been brought up by Miss Havisham to wreak revenge on all the male sex”’ (207). Assuming that this is true, it is quite possible for Estella to forget the pain that she has inflicted on Pip. Herbert is also a victim on Estella’s insensitive ways and, possibly, her physical abuse. As a result, she is unaware of the affects she causes on her victims and how each of her victims responds to her abuses or insults. In addition, another explanation for Estella’s account of her loss of memory to Pip, is that she intentionally wants to hurt Pip. On her first encounter with Pip, Estella intentionally makes him cry and she acknowledges that she is aware that he is hurt: “You have been crying till you are half blind and you are near crying again now” (100), she says to Pip. This instance can be read as another attempt to make Pip cries. She knows that Pip, is almost on the same social level as herself and, therefore, treating him as an inferior party will be ineffective in hurting him. She does not acknowledge that she one causes Pip pain, because she does not to apologies for it. Also, she does not want to present the idea that she is no longer the same Estella, who capable of hurting both physically and emotionally.
ReplyDeleteFrom reading this passage, the line, "That there could be no such beauty without it [a sincere heart]," had really caught my attention. Pip refuses to believe that what Estella is saying about herself is true; he doubts that a heartless girl can possess such beauty. I believe that Dickens is using his character (Pip) to tell us what he believes to be true: a beautiful girl contains a kind and sincere heart/soul. Another beautiful girl that had been introduced to us was Rose Maylie. Dickens had described Rose as being beautiful, sweet, and angelic. I believe that although Estella has been raised by Miss Havisham to be cruel and cold-hearted towards men, she nevertheless possesses a sincere heart that will eventually be revealed to the readers. Thus, although Pip is saddened by Estella's words and actions, he seems to have faith in her (true colors).
ReplyDeletewhen Estella says "I have no heart", this is one of the many instances where Dickens shows humans and their inhumane qualities. One issue that Dickens addresses is industrilzation. With this topic he shows how inamnimate things take on human qualities while humans act as objects Estella states she has no heart and sympathy. Although she doesnt literally mean that she does not have a heart, she speaks as if she is an object. Estella is the opposite of the typical woman who loves and cares for people. Instead, she is a insensitive person.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Felicia about the correlation between industrialization and life (or lack thereof) between the two. Comparing Estella to an object with emotion is similar to the workings of Coketown. In Coketown, you have a place that is filled with objects that are automated, replicating life in a world where there is none. I believe this is yet another case of Dickens establishing that sometimes it is not black and white when trying to figure out where to draw the line between humanity and the machine. While I definitely would not consider Estella 100% automated, the quote "I Have no heart" resonates with the idea of industrialization removing a layer of humanity from society.
DeleteEstelle remembers Pip and Herbert fighting but can not remember making Pip cry, I don’t buy that. I think Estelle does remember that she made Pip cry she will not acknowledge it since admitting that would mean she cared enough to store it as a memory making Pip happy that she keeps him in her thought’s. By her stating that she doe not remember she is saying that Pip is not important enough to run through her memories. This saddens Pip and shatters his hopes even after becoming gentle men of high society and brings him right to that common boy crying because of Estelle.
ReplyDeleteEstelle feels the need to explain herself to Pip that she is not a monster out to purposely hurt people but simply that she is hollow inside. She blames her lack of emotion for not remembering that event between the two. Her explanation of having no “ softness… sympathy…sentiment” does not only serve as a justification of her being but also serves as a warning. She is basically warning Pip that she is not capable of love when she says “ ‘I have not bestowed my tenderness anywhere. I have never had any such thing’” (p.261). She cannot love Pip so she is telling him not to get his hopes up because they will never work out as a couple and Pip will end up hurt.
On the topic of memories, Estelle does not have her own and is instead chalk full of those that Mrs. Havisham instilled within her. I fail to believe she is merely an empty vessel simply going through the motions and she even remembers selective instances with Pip. This would certainly be an issue for Dickens since it prevents a child from having a childhood (which in Hard Times involved all that fancy) but perhaps more so in that it cripples the individual. Pip alludes to this and it is immediately contrasted with his crying on the inside. There is a depth to Pip that Estelle does not have, and in this way Danilka’s comment about her straightforwardness makes sense. But what is the tax to be paid for this and does it outweigh the benefits of actually having emotions and memories? I would think that Dickens would oppose this and the shift from a third person narrative to first person seems to indicate that he wants to give us a deeper grasp of what he wants for the individual.
ReplyDelete